the administration is to be given compliments for deagettins to this point, but we have to get it over the line. we need new free trade agreements. ag trade is a huge aspect of the revenue and viability for the american farmer. >> our conversation on the farm bill and policy continues. if you live in the eastern and central time zones 202-748-8000, mountain and pacific time zones, 202 20 20 202-748-8002. post comments on twitter. one of the portions our previous guest talked about in the farm bill was subsidies for farmers. can you make the case why farmers need that thing from the federal government? i'm sure you've heard they don't. >> i have. we've heard the dialog. more than ever, commissioners, secretaries and directors know to have a viable agriculture in

their state, farmers need title 1, crop insurance. these are provisions that enhance farm sustainability and economic viability. it's a huge title in the farm bill. we actually don't advocate and work on it specifically because as commissioners, that's not the area that we feel -- >> now to capitol hill as state department and u.s. agency for international development officials testify on u.s. policy towards china. the hearing is expected to focus on democracy, human rights and the rule of law as they relate to strategic competition with china and how the united states should advance those values. a senate foreign relations subcommittee holds the conversation live here on c-span 3. >> an achievement for the american people who sent us here to conduct oversight our over nation's foreign policy. i thank senator marquee for the work we've done together

throughout the region. in kug conjnkiconjunction we au landmark legislation to deter our adversaries for generations to come, to inform this legislation we conducted five hearings, coming a range of national security economic and rule of law challenges in the endo pacific. we concluded with the hearing on may 15th, 2018, featuring state department and department of defense officials. on june 21st, 2018, secretary pompeo and secretary mattis formally endorsed aria in a letter to this committee. they passed the committee on september 26th, 2018, and anticipate hopeful it will be signed into law by the end of the year. in the subcommittee we held two hearings on north korea, coming the shift from strategic patience policy of the last administration to the maximum pressure and engagement policy of this one. we agreed that clearly much more work needs to be done to achieve complete, verifiable and

irreversible denuclearization of the regime required by u.s. law. we held a hearing on cyber security policy, a national security concern for the united states that needs to be immediately addressed. this hearing today will be the final hearing in a three part series of hearings titled "the china challenge" that examines how the united states should respond to the challenge of a china that seeks to upend and s suplant world order. today's hearing will focus on democracy, human rights, and the rule of law, values that have been fundamental to the conduct of u.s. foreign policy for generations. as they relate to china the trump administration has been clear on the scope of the problem of the challenge before us. according to the national security strategy, for decades u.s. policy was rooted in the belief that support for china's rise and for its integration into the post-war international order, would liberalize china. contrary to our hopes the report

stated china expanded its power at the expense of the sovereignty of others. according to the national defense strategy, the central challenge to u.s. prosperity and security is the re-emergens of strategic competition by what national security strategy classifies as revisionist powers. it is clear that china and russia want to shape a world consistent with their model, gaining veto over other nation's economic, diplomatic and security decisions. the so-called authoritarian closing under president xi jinping resulted in an unprecedented and intensifying crackdown on civil society, ethnic minorities and religious freedom in china. the news of mass concentration camps for muslims in the autonomous province shocked the conscious. the crackdowns of the autonomous region intensifies. while beijing continues to refuse negotiations.

human rights defenders are jailed, tortured, and otherwise deprived of liberty. genuine freedom of speech and assembly are nonexistent. corruption and abuse of power are rampant. the judicial system is a tool of the state and not an impartial arbiter. how the united states should advance these values on chinese soil. with that, i'll turn it over to the senator for his opening comments. >> thank you, mr. chairman, very much. again, thank you for this incredible set of hearings we've had in this subcommittee over the past two years. it's just absolutely fantastic and i want to compliment you for that. this hearing is a continuation of that. looking at chinese policies and

influences, these challengeses are not insurmountable, but they do require our thoughtful study and close attention. around the world all countries, including the united states, rely on the rules based international order to underpin security and prosperity, to help provide a level playing field, to provide the maximum opportunity for the greatest number of people and to defend and protect certain fundamental rights. it is of the utmost important that we do everything in our power to ensure that this system remains. our first hearing focused on economic policies of the chinese government effort that ran counter to these tenants. the subsequent hearing explored china's military modernization and expansion in its implications for the security interests of america and our allies and the fundamental peace and stability of the inendo pacific. today's hearing seeks to capture developments and chinese

domestic policy that could have broad implications for the way people are treated around the world. after all, what has made american foreign policy strong and effective is not just our economic and military strength, but our commitment to certain values. the world has looked up to the united states. it watched as our democratic experiment developed, one that prioritized the promotion of basic individual freedoms and liberties, but we must make clear this wasn't just an experiment. that american democracy isn't obsolete. u.s. leadership on human rights isn't temporary. while american democracy has been messy at times, it has also been the envy of the international community. it is what has allowed us to be a moral leader in the eyes of the world. as china rises, it grows ever more influential around the world. elements of china's policies have challenged long established

concepts of rights and freedoms. i like many others at one point believed that china's entry into the international community would lead to increased political openings, the promotion of freedom of expression and greater commitment to human rights. unfortunately, we are seeing just the opposite trend. we are seeing the chinese government's authoritarian attitudes influence five key areas. first, it seeks to politically curb dissent through censorship of all types of freedom of expression, including on-line. this approach is drawing american companies such as google into this way of thinking and along the way, compromising data privacy provisions on their on-line platforms to exchange for greater market access for american companies. second, it is employing extra

judicial tactics to intimidate citizens, including those from the united states, along with senators cardin and rubio, senator gardner. we're concerned that this administration is not raising these issues with the chinese government, its use of exit band policies to prevent innocent americans from leaving china, which violate international conventions an bilateral agreements. we have to do more. third, we are seeing the continued ethnic and religious repression of minority communities in china. the chinese government's tactics to repress tibetan buddhists is being replicated. there are reports as many as 1 million muslims have been forced to take part, quote, in reeducation camps where they must renounce their religious and ethnic identity.

this policy is an abomination and defies all forms of basic human rights principles. this, sadly, falls into a pattern of state behave as the government's policies to target christians and members of other faiths is well known. fourth, the chinese government is now exhibiting the bold behavior of targeting activists and dissents overseas. in one case, chinese authorities have threatened the family members of radio-free asia's news service journalists and should they continue to report on the activities inside of china. finally, china's government has protected other governments accused of significant human rights violations. china is working through the united nations security council to protect the government in burma from international condemnation for its brutal assault on the rohingya. it is weakening the

international efforts to pressure the regime in cambodia by offering financial loans. it is giving lucrative lines of credit to venezuela as the world tries to isolate president maduro. it is noticeably silent on president duterte's drug war in the philippines as it strengthens the economic and security partnership with manila. such policies undermine established human rights standards internationally. they challenge the individual freedoms and liberties the majority of the world holds dear. it is imperative we confront this challenge and engage in our chinese counterparts about our concerns and work with our allies and partners to establish a collective front against this maligned behavior and we have to do it at the highest levels starting with the president because we cannot credibly defend human rights without the backing of the office of the president. there are many unanswered questions about how this

administration is dealing with china's authoritarian behavior, how effective are we in calling out chinese behavior, especially when we pull out of institutions like the human rights council with which can serve as an effective venue to apply pressure. how are we raising our concerns with the chinese government? what is our president saying to president xi about human rights? did this come up at the g-20? if so, how did the conversation go? is if not, why not? we don't know. we need to shed light on these questions if we want to help stem the tide towards authoritarian challenges to democracy, human rights and the rule of law. we must ensure our diplomatic efforts, our comprehensive and moral leadership of the planet depends on it. i thank you, mr. chairman, once again and thank our very distinguished panel for being here today. >> thank you. i will introduce all three and we will begin with you, mr.

busby. our first witness is scott busby who serves as deputy assistant of state at the democracy and labor. previously he served as director for human rights on the national security council in the white house from 2009 to 2011 where he managed a wide range of human rights and refugee issues. welcome to the committee and thank you for your service. our second witness is laura stone who serves as acting deputy assistant secretary of state at the bureau of east asian and pacific affairs. previously she served as the director of the office of chinese and mongolian affairs, director of the economic policy office and economic counselor in hanoi, vietnam. thank you for being here. our third witness is gloria steel, who serves as acting assistant administrator at the bureau for asia at the usaid, a career member of the senior executive service, she was usaid mission director for the philippines and the pacific islands prior to her appointment. secretary busby, please begin.

>> thank you, mr. chairman, and ranking member marki and members of the subcommittee. we appreciate your attention to the human rights situation in china and the invitation to appear before you today. defending universal rights and fundamental freedoms has been and will continue to be an essential element of american foreign policy. governments that respect human rights remain the best vehicle for promoting prosperity, happiness and peace. vice president pence aptly summed up the current human rights situation in china in his recent speech at the hudson institute where he said, quote, for a time beijing restored greater liberty and respect for human rights but in recent years china has taken a sharp u-turn towards control and oppression of its own people. you both fully described that situation in your own remarks this morning. as both of you mentioned, some of the most widespread and worse

human rights abuses taking place in china right now are occurring in the region. the u.s. government assesses since april 2017, chinese authorities have indefinitely detained at least 800,000 and possibly more than 2 million ethnic kaz zachs and other minorities in internment camps. reports suggest most detained are not being charged with crimes and their families have little to no information about their whereabouts. at first china denied the existence of camps but as public reports have emerged chinese authorities assert they are, quote, vocational educational centers, closed quotes, which glosses over the fact that many renowned intellectuals and retired professionals are also detained in these camps. former detainees who have reached safety have spoken of

relentless indoctrination and harsh conditions. for example, praying in other religious practices are forbidden. the apparent goal is to force detainees to renounce islam and embrace the chinese communist party. the recent testimony of marigold is a chilling and heart wrenching account of how badly the chinese government is mistreating many of the people who have been detained in the region. life outside the internment camps is not much better. neighborhoods have entry and exit checkpoints manned by armed police. families have been forced to accept chinese officials into their homes for extended home stays. thousands of mosques have been shuttered or destroyed. some have even been converted into communist propaganda centers. unfortunately, fleeing china is not enough to escape the long arm of the chinese government. china has routinely pressured other countries to return

members of other muslim minority the group which with is often proven successful. even when such individuals reach safety china continues to harass and intimidate them. china's china's repression of minority groups does not end. its policies have spread hundreds of miles away, for instance, to muslim communities. t tibets face oppression and surveillance. it was the testing ground for many of the techniques now used. chinese authorities also continue to restrict the freedom of religion of christian communities and others. protestant house churches are being shut down and even officially registered churches are under increased government scrutiny. in september, the holy see in china signed a two-year provisional agreement on the selection of bishops in china, which raises additional religious freedom concerns. members of the church of

almighty god also reportedly continued to face detention, forced labor and torture. as both of you noted, the government also continues to abuse lawyers, human rights defenders and other activists. we are particularly concerned about the cases of wong jong, john tiong and wong chi who have been imprisoned and abused for the fight for the rights of others. any advocate for social change, including the efforts of women's, lgbti, labor and migrant rights groups runs the risk of intimidation and ha rationment. journalists also continue to have their practices restricted and rights abused. as members of this committee have previously noted, china's system of oppression is exacerbated by the government's increasing technological

sophistication n so sophistication. in some we see a concerted effort to use advanced technology and old-fashioned repression to control all aspects of chinese society. despite these developments, the united states continues to advocate for human rights in china. while laura will speak to how we seek to advance human rights, my unit is implementing $10 million in fy 2018 economic support funds to support human rights in china just as we have done the past several years. nevertheless, such programs are increasingly challenged by the difficult operating environment in china, including the new and highly restrictive foreign management law. we are working with our allies to encourage china to improve its human rights situation as demonstrated through our recent engangment in china's review. and we continue to push back against china's closed internet

by, among other things, funding programs that support anti-censorship technologies and promote digital safety. we welcome the spotlight that this hearing shines on the human rights situation in china and we will continue to work closely with this subcommittee to support the efforts of those in china who are seeking to stand up for their rights. thank you. >> chairman gardner, ranking member markey, distinguished members of the subcommittee, i truly appreciate the invitation to appear before you today on this important issue. the united states wants a constructive results-oriented relationship with china, grounded in the principles of fairness, prereciprocity and respect. it is essential to our ability to achieve this vision and realize a sustainable u.s./china relationship. today china is doubling down on domestic controls in stark

contrast to the universal values that the united states and its partner championed for many decades. we've witnessed a regression, including religious freedom, the rule of law and civil society. my colleague can speak more to many of these items in more detail today and our written statements highlight them as well. today i will share with you some of the actions the state department is taking to reinforce our support for human rights and fundamental freedoms in china in the face of these challenges. we are particularly alarmed by reports of china's mass detention of uighurs, kazack and other members in camps. we urge china to reverse counterproductive policies that conflate terrorism with expression of religious freedom or political views. u.s. lawful permanent residents, family members and individuals who participated in state department exchange programs have been detained in camps.

we regularly raise these cases with chinese authorities and insist they provide information on the location and medical condition of those detained and more important immediately repolice them. secretary pompeo and secretary mattis highlighted these very issues just last month in washington. the vice president spoke about this issue publicly in early october and u.n. ambassador haley did the same in speaking about the security challenges that china's campaign poses to the international community. the state department is leading interagency efforts within the administration to review and develop a u.s. whole of government strategy to address the campaign of repression. elements of the strategy could include utilizing a number of tools to promote accountability by chinese officials for human rights abuses, preventing china's use of u.s. goods and services and strengthing our diplomatic efforts throughout the world to attract like-minded

partners. department officials continue to meet with the members of the uighur diaspra and coordinate to prevent the harassment of uighurs in the united states. the department has conducted outreach to u.s. and chinese companies with business to draw attention to the risks to their exposure of chinese abuses and underscore the u.s. commitment to avoid complicity. u.s. embassies around the world are providing assistance to survives of the camps. we've engauged dozens of foreign governments to help those whose lives or freedom would be threatened. if we would fundamentally change behavior, the international community must act together. the department of state officials regularly attending the trials and sentencing of chinese human rights lawyers and activists and i and others have met with the wives and family members of those detained. we press for their release both publicly and privately of all

political prisoners and many of their names appear in my written testimony. though we were unsuccessful in our efforts to secure the freedom of leo, we secured the long-sought release of his widow in july of this year. ambassador brandsted has been active in cases such as these. when we speak up, we try to do so in concert with allies and partners throughout the world that are similarly concerned. again, though, speaking out publicly is just one tool we have. a chinese security official was among the first ever of foreign officials sanctioned using executive order 13818 which builds on the magnitsky human rights accountability act for the death of an activist held in government custody. america's critical role in promoting fundamental freedom in china is in many ways more important today as china attempts to take a global leadership role. there is more the united states can do. we look forward to working

closely with this subcommittee to support the efforts of the chinese people, to realize their human rights and fundamental freedoms and promote accountability for those who seek to violate or abuse those rights and freedoms. thank you for the invitation to testify today on these very important issues. of course i'm happy to answer any questions that you might have. >> thank you very much for your testimony. miss steele, please proceed. >> chairman gardner, ranking member markey, mr. kaine, thank you very much for this opportunity to talk about democracy, human rights and rule of law in china. in support of america's foreign policy, the u.s. agency for international development leads the u.s. government's international development and disaster assistance. our work saves lives and helps countries to become more self reliant and stronger partners to america. for the purposes of today's hearing, i will first highlight usaid's work with the tibetans and provide a brief overview of the support for human rights and rule of law in asia.

thanks to a strong bipartisan support in congress, usaid partners with tibetans to help them protect and preserve their threatened way of life. within china we support the preservation of tibetan culture and the assistance with environmental conservation. to date usaid has supported the preservation of nearly 7 million cultural heritage items. in part due to our environmental conservation support, tibetan communities are empowered to lead the management of their natural resources from rangelands to rivers. in india and nepal we help self reliance and resilience. this includes strengthening their health and education systems. for example, our work in training features modern methods has benefited more than 21,000 units at 75 tibetan students. we are helping tibetans maintain the vitality of their

institutions while sustaining their culture. in support of sustained livelihoods, usaid has launched a pilot program to help government vendors sustain or grow their businesses through small low interest loans. in fiscal year 2017 the program benefited over 800 migrant enterprises and boasted 100% on-time repayment rate. next i will highlight our democracy human rights and rule of law work in asia. over the last five years, democratic institutions across asia have been significantly tested. some foreign influences have overtly coopted leaders giving rise to increased corruption and subversions of national sovereignty. we are seeing competing development models that can lead to unsustainable debt or limit economic, political and social

freedoms. this unfortunate developments undermine the long-term stability of our partner countries. in contrast, the u.s. government offers an alternative development approach that fosters strategic partnership and self reliance, not long-term dependence. in support of the strategy, usaid promotes citizen centered governance in the will and interests of the people and infused democratic principles of participation, inclusion, transparency and accountability. we promote adherence to international rules and standards and we support legal institutional respect for human rights, the protection of which is a cornerstone of strong democratic governance. we have achieved some notable progress. however, we recognize that we still have a long way to go and must remain steadfast in our engagement. before closing, i'd like to mention our work concerning improving governance and natural resource sector. the natural resources upon which

many of our partner countries defend for their long-term economic growth are increasingly threatened by irresponsible extraction, predatory behavior and poor governance. that's why we prioritize improving the management of natural resources across asia. we promote government policies, regulations that foster adherence to internationally accepted standards, including environmental safeguards that help to mitigate the entry of predatory players. of particular note is a new three-year program we are launching that will support responsible infrastructure development. there is no doubt that china is increasingly exerting its influence across the region. this presents challenges to our partner countries' sustainable development and can threaten country sovereignty. the strategic partnership offers a clear choice, one that invests in countries self reliance and help countries to make informed

decisions about their own futures. thank you and i look forward to your counsel and questions. >> thank you for your testimony. i think the testimony from the three of you has presented one of the most damning views of china's rise the committee as heard. i want to go through some of mr. busby's statement to reiterate what was said here. we're talking about mass detention of uighurs, ethnics, surveillances sbrus i've and aum any pleasant. harassment of political dissidents by chinese on foreign soil. detaining journalists family members who remain in china to harass those abroad. forcing them from return from overseas. reports that suggest that most people detained are not charged with crimes, their families lack information about their whereabouts, their well-being or for how long they will be held. some are being merely detained because they traveled abroad or because they have family abroad.

there appears to be no way to contest such detentions. failure to quickly learn the lessons taught in these camps leads to beatings and food deprivation in your testimony. reports of the use of stress positions, cold cells and sleep deprivation in the camps. reports of torture or cruel, inhumane treatment, including sexual abuse. one common goal in the reports from former detainees seems to be forcing detainees to renounce islam and embrace the chinese communist party. you said that. reports that there's constant surveillance of detainees to ensure they do not pray, even in their own beds, in the middle of the night. forced to eat pork and drink alcohol. reportedly being forced to medicate with unknown substances. civil society groups say most uighurs face arbitrary imprisonment, disappearance, torture or summary execution. one case you cite in your

testimony, authorities in china used dynamite to demolish a house church. they are requiring the removal of crosses, in some cases the hanging of pictures of xi jinping inside the church and the installation of surveillance equipment inside the church. reports of officials destroying or limiting the access to religious materials like the allegations that chinese authorities have burned the bibles and korans. we are talking about one of the most significant trade partners this country and many countries around the globe have with over a billion people. we're not talking about some tin pot dictatorship. we're talking about a country that people look to more and more for leadership around the globe. what you have described are damning evidence of horrendous human right violations.

could you please explain, secretary busby, some of the steps this administration has taken to hold people accountable for these actions, and what we are doing at the united nations and other places to perhaps provide inspection -- inspectors, access and pressure from these kinds of activities from continuing. to prevent these kinds of activities. >> thank you, chairman gardner, for the question. first of all, we've been trying to raise public awareness about the situation. at the first-ever religious freedom ministerial that secretary pompeo hosted in july, both he and the vice president called attention to the abuses and we circulated among other attendees a statement on human rights abuses in china that talked about the abuses. ever since then we have been trying to continue to spread the word about what's going on.

in the united nations, we recently participated in the universal periodic review, which is something that every country has to go through. and in our brief statement, it had to be brief because of the number of folks who wanted to speak at this event, we called attention to the human rights abuses in china and called for them to cease. as my colleague, acting deputy assistant secretary stone, mentioned, there's a very robust interagency process under way led by the national security council to look at specific concrete steps we can take to respond to the horrific things happening there and try to bring them to a stop. >> have any sanctions been leveled against any chinese officials involved in these suspected or confirmed events, actions, has any passport been suspended? has any official action been

levied against the chinese government? >> thank you very much for the question, chairman. i obviously share at a personal level our concerns about what's going on. i don't think anybody who is working on these issues for a long time could have any other position. the tools that congress has given us, we really do appreciate them. they are the kind of things that we can use. it's a little frustrating. i understand, it's frustrating for us as well. the process sometimes is not as fast as we would like. that's actually a good feature of our system. >> i'm going to run out of time. just quickly, so i apologize. has any action been taken? >> we are working through a process right now in order to get through to the appropriate actions using the tools that you have given us and the process is

moving along. we hope to move on those issues and we hope to take action as soon as the process has continued. >> well, i hope those processes move quickly. i know treasury is involved in those decisions as well. but encourage action to be taken quickly. senator markey. >> thank you, mr. chairman, very much. i want to raise the issue of the missing chinese based relatives of six radio free asia uighur reporters. what is the administration doing about this? how are we raising that issue? it undermines obviously their credibility of that whole mission and it creates a chilling effect in terms of our ability to be able to deliver an honest message about what it is that we see happening in that region. so what are we doing to protect these relatives? >> well, first off, we raised

the cases with the chinese government. so far to no avail. our spokesperson, heather nauert, met with the rfa journalists here to hear about the situation of their relatives. at that meeting she called out again the chinese government for undertaking these actions against the relatives. so it's an issue we continue to track and we continue to press the chinese on. >> thus far we've been unsuccessful in receiving any change in policy by the chinese government, is that correct? >> so far to my knowledge we don't have any relatives who have been released as a consequence of these efforts. >> what else could we do in this area in order to get the proper response? >> obviously there's a lot we can do. many of them are, as i referred to, tools that were provided by congress which we're

appreciative of. i referred to in my testimony some of the actions that we are considering. i can't prejudge exactly the process. obviously we really are a country ruled by law, and so we are going through that process. we want to make sure that these are actions that can stand up, you know, under legislative scrutiny, judicial scrutiny, and we will continue to move forward on those actions. i mean i think the real point on this, though, is that even if we don't have an immediate impact on what we're doing, i think that it's still important that we take these actions. >> i agree with you. just more must be done. >> yes. >> i want to move on to online censorship. google, apple, facebook, are reported to have aided the chinese government internet censorship efforts as part of their efforts to access the chinese market. for example, google disables domain fronting capacity used to evade sensors and is working on a sensored version of search

engine dragonfly to launch in china. apple has removed more than 400 virtual private networks while handing over their china icloud user data to the chinese state-owned mobile operator. has the state department engaged the administration to monitor and discourage these corporate behaviors which go against the fundamental value of freedom of expression? >> thank you for the question, senator. yes, we have. indeed we recently met with senior officials from google in the wake of the news story about the development of the dragonfly application, and expressed our strong concerns that any collaboration by them with the chinese government to develop a censored version of their search tool would be very problematic for us. >> i think that just must continue to escalate in terms of the pressure that we're applying. we just can't separate ourselves and our corporations from the

goals which we have in china and other countries. miss stone and mr. busby, there are some calls for uighurs to be given temporary protected status to ensure uighurs are not sent back to china to face repression. other european governments have halted extraditions of uighurs. do you support that move? >> i mean that's one of many options that is being considered. >> do you support that move? we're not extraditing people back to a country which is repressing them? >> we are generally opposed to the return of any uighurs back to china and the issue of tps again is one of the many options being considered. >> i think it is the option which should be considered and implemented. we just can't as a country be sending people back to what we know is repression. and what is our diplomatic strategy to engage muslim majority countries to condemn

chinese behavior? it seems like there should be more of an outcry from the muslim world. we haven't heard them. these are muslims who are being oppressed inside of china. what is the united states' strategy to get more cooperation from muslim countries to speak up for their co-religionists? >> senator, a very good question point. i was recently in malaysia and raised this very issue with the government there and we have been raising with other muslim majority countries, again with the goal of establishing a like-minded -- >> have we raised it with saudi arabia? >> i can't speak to saudi arabia. >> do you know, miss stone, if we have? >> we would be happy to get you a list of the countries we've raised it with. i know it's the majority of muslim majority countries but i'd have to check. >> we just don't see it at work here. i don't think china will respond

unless they know and from government to government we should be telling them that we expect that as their policy. thank you, mr. chairman. >> mr. rubio. >> this whole topic of china is more than just the balance of trade. president xi views himself as a historic and transformational figure and one of their goals is remake the global order more in their image and more advantageous to them. many of the things being talked about today are a part of it. the abuses that are well documented against uighur muslims, trying to strip the people of tibet of their identity and religion, the long standing attacks on practitioners. obviously we know the stress that christianity has faced. and then on the field of democracy, we've seen the erosion of it in hong kong, the disqualification of four pro-democracy lawmakers from the ballot, the jailing of three pro democracy student leaders and you see what the global reaction has been to it. and there's reason to be concerned that this post world

war ii pro democracy, pro human rights global norms are being eroded and reshaped and that china is using its geopolitical heft and economic power to push it in that direction. senator markey just mentioned the silence of the muslim world in the face of forced internment of hundreds of thousands of muslim uighurs and the u.n. security forces ejected a uighur ethnic -- an ethnic uighur representing an accredited nongovernmental organization, clearly at the request of somebody. he was accredited. greece blocked the european union from issuing a statement or a position at the human rights council for the first time i believe ever, a definitive statement, delivering a statement. we can all surmise why. they own every port in greece. they have incredible economic leverage on greece. the list goes on in.

in 2017 the u.n. secretary general introduced president xi at an event that was closed to zil society and made no reference. human rights environment in china. the eu council commission in brussels expressed concern about human rights abuses in china but didn't call for the release of political prisoners, including their own citizens, citizens of the eu or even the row peepeal abusive laws. this is all from a report from human rights watch. in june italian police briefly detained and later released the same ethnic uighur ngo representative who had been invited to speak at the italian senate, and they briefly detained him, even though he had been invited to be there. again, it's not clear whether the chinese requested that. on issue after issue it appears to us you can see around the world that even nations that long have been committed to democracy and human rights, when it comes to china, are either being quiet, looking the other

way are frankly now leveraged to the point where they cannot speak out. so that's why it's so important for the united states to be forceful about it because no one else can or wants to. and when others do want to, you're concerned when we don't join them. earlier this month there were 15 western ambassadors in beijing spearheaded by canada. they reportedly sent a letter to the communist party chief seeking a meeting and expressing deep concern regarding the growing crackdown. no one thought that meeting was going to happen per se, but i'm curious, miss stone, why didn't the u.s. sign onto that letter, do you know? >> so we agree with you completely. thank you very much for the question and the clear statement of support for the u.s. speaking out strongly on the human rights conditions in china and also the conditions in shinjon.

the specific letter, sometimes the countries involved, they are like-minded partners. we may or may not join on any kind of particular measure that's coming out of the embassies in beijing. but i do want to assure you that we are working consistently with those like-minded partners to do real action. the thing is we have many more tools and we also have a lot more spine sometimes to be able to actually take real action. >> i'm running out of time. i want to make the point if we're here complaining about how all these countries aren't doing enough, when they actually do something, we can't even sign onto a letter. i don't know if that decision was made here in d.c. or made by the ambassador, but i think it was a big mistake. in your written testimony, you mention the fact that chinese security services are harassing uighurs abroad. we've heard firsthand from people who say this is the case. can you tell us if the department is working with other agencies on this issue, in

particular protecting u.s. citizens and legal permanent residents? and what sort of outreach is anyone doing to these communities who feel like the long arm of china is reaching them here within the united states? >> yes, we are. we are working closely with the fbi to make sure that any information that comes our way goes to them and we'd be very happy if you hear of anything in addition to also work with you to pass that along. in terms of making sure the message gets out, whenever we meet with the communities, we do everything we can, we also ensure that we are constantly updating our travel guidance to make sure that people are aware of the situation. >> again, ma'am, in this particular case these are people inside the united states so they're not -- but i agree with the travel part. finally in your written testimony, you indicated that the department of state had conducted outreach to u.s. and chinese companies with business there to draw attention to the risk of their exposure to these

abuses. there's a company that sold dna sequencers to the police there. this is against the backdrop of these grave human rights violations, including, by the way, mandatory data banking of the entire population. we had testimony last week at the commission on china that they are forcing people to turn over blood to get a passport or just compelling it. thermal fisher scientific, an american company, is selling them dna sequencers. that's what it's used for. can you tell us whether that is one of the companies that the department of state has reached out to and expressed concerns about how their technology could be used pie the chinese to do these horrifying things? >> i can't speak to that particular company but i can tell you that's the kind of company that we are definitely speaking with. >> senator kaine. >> thank you, mr. chair, and thanks to the witnesses for your service and your testimony. senators gardner, markey, rubio,

danes, warner and i wrote a letter to secretary pompeo about the radio-free asia journalists families on the 26th of july. to my knowledge we have not received a reply to this letter. it was a letter to ask secretary pompeo to brief us on the status of the cases and what's being done to try to help the family members who are detained for the six journalists -- four of the six journalists are residents of virginia. i'd like to introduce the letter into the record, hopefully without objection. secretary pompeo is busy, we're not expecting him to drop everything and do a response, but somebody needs to respond to this letter. it's more than four months old. i hope you -- and it may not be within any of your purviews to do that response, but i would hope that you take back to the committee that when we write a letter like this, we're not just doing it for our health. we'd like an answer. do you know, for example, whether -- has secretary pompeo raised the issue of the

imprisoned journalists' families directly with his counterpart? are you aware of whether he has or hasn't? >> sir, on that specific issue he obviously has raised as you can see in the diplomatic and security dialogue press conference with the chinese standing right next to him. whether he's raised that particular case, could i take that and get back to you? >> please. i'd like to also know whether ambassador brandsted has raised the issue of his journalists' families with his counterpart and whether president trump has directly raised this issue in dialogue with the chinese. and again, we would appreciate a response to this letter, which is now more than four months old. and i've got to tell you, i'm nervous about this issue and these journalists' families. just last week the secretary of state wrote an editorial in "the wall street journal" with respect to another journalist, very resident jamal khashoggi, who was murdered by the saudis. this is a quote from his

editorial. the october murder of saudi national jamal khashoggi in turkey has heightened the capitol hill caterwaling and media pile-on. we're not raising this issue about journalists who are being targeted and their families being targeted just to score political points. it isn't about caterwalling and media pile-on, it's about we put it in the first amendment for a reason here in this country. we put it in the first amendment for a reason. and when people living in virginia, my home state, living in this country lawfully are being murdered or their families being targeted and we're silent or not taking ample steps, it raises questions about whether we are being faithful to a value that we proclaim. i will give secretary pompeo credit, the first paragraph of that editorial suggests that our

raising the question of khashoggi is caterwalling. in the 11th paragraph he says of course the murder of a journalist is against american values. but i don't like being accused as a member of this body when i raise a question about the murder of a journalist who lawfully lives in my state of being engaged in caterwalling or media pile-on and i don't think my colleagues appreciate it either. let me ask this, do you have a good estimate of the number of uighurs that are currently being detained in detention camps in china? >> thank you, senator, for the question. in my statement what i said, and this is derive frd from what ou intelligence bureau has estimated, that there are at least 800,000 and possibly up to a couple of million folks in these detention facilities. it's hard for us to get precise data because we don't have full access to that region. but that's our current --

>> that's staggering. and i've seen public reports or press reports that it's a million, and i think you're right, it's hard to get a fix on the exact number. but that's a staggering number. press reports also indicate that a million hon chinese have been recruited to essentially forcibly occupy the homes of uighurs, so those who are not in detention camps are having hon chinese placed in their homes so that people will be studied to make sure there isn't a koran visible, they're not praying during the day. we have a constitutional provision, the third amendment, that's one of the least used of all, which prohibits the quartering of government troops in people's homes. it's never really been used because no government is stupid enough to try to do it. but the notion of a million hon chinese being deployed into uighur homes, and you've also indicated other things, guarding check points into uighur neighborhoods, this is very significant. the last thing i'd like to ask if you would, and i'm over, mr.

chair. but the situation of falen gong is also interesting. why is the rationale of imprisoning those members? is the suspicion of any concerted and coordinated activity or is there a chinese governmental belief that the ideology is somehow counter the state? explain that to me, please. >> thanks for the question, senator. i think your analysis is right. the mere fact that there is a group of people meeting independently with views that are independent of the communist party is viewed as a threat by the communist party. i think that's the primary source of their suspicion. >> so there's no allegation that falengong or participating in terrorist activities or things like that as far as you know. >> not to my knowledge. >> all right, thank you very much. appreciate your testimony.

>> thank you, senator kaine. i want to go back to one of the comments i made during my first round of questions. i talked about inspectors. u.n. observation, ambassadorial visits to the region. mr. busby, secretary busby, in your opening statement you talked about the universal declaration of human rights. has a official u.n. envoy, inspectors, visited the region? >> not to my knowledge recently, senator. there are people mandated by the human rights council to look into things like freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom from torture. my understanding is virtually all of them have asked for access to china but none of them have been granted such access. to my knowledge, no u.n. official charged with looking into human rights issues has been allowed access to china. >> has the u.s. presence at the u.n. pushed for such access with

china and tried or attempted to build a coalition encouraging china to accept such -- >> we have. we have regularly raised that issue with the chinese government urging them to receive such special -- >> has our ambassador asked to visit the region? >> we haven't asked recently. it's on a list of places that we do want to visit. the united states diplomats do occasionally visit shinjong. it's not a closed area. our concern is that we need an independent body, like from the united nations, to be able to go in and do a proper investigation. >> and we will encourage -- i would encourage the ambassador to request such a visit and encourage us to do everything we can at the united nations, for whoever is responsible to get in there immediately. this is not acceptable. again, this is somebody we are doing billions upon billions of trade with each and every day

and some of the most heinous human rights violations are occurring right before our very eyes. >> no, mr. chairman, that's a very good point. unfortunately, such access depends on the ascent of the chinese government. >> in the trade discussions that have taken place, the tariffs that have been levied, has human rights ever been associated with those tariffs? >> i actually haven't been in the trade meetings. in the discussions that i have been in, they have at a technical level, but i do want to reassure you that whenever we are doing preparations for any visit, i always raise these issues. i feel very strongly about it and i also feel the u.s. government has a real role in making sure that china knows that to the extent they want to play a greater role in the world that this is just essential, that these are the kinds of international norms that they have to abide by.

>> and perhaps follow up with this question too on china and north korea. is china still receiving labo r laborers from north korea? >> i'm sorry, sir, i'd have to get back to you with the exact information on that. >> and one of the concerns that i've had over the past several years, china's willingness to accept laborers and basically violations by north korea of human rights. are you familiar with any of the actions china has taken regarding the laborers? >> i'm familiar with the fact that in the past china certainly accepted a large number of laborers from north korea, because the north korean laborers do not have the ability to keep their own salaries and have any kind of freedom. we do consider them to be slave laborers. one of the things that we worked with our like-minded partners in the u.n. security council

resolutions was to ensure that the laborers -- new laborers going into countries has to be tapered off, but in terms of where the exact situation is at the moment i'm afraid that i would have to get back to you. >> administrator steel, when it comes to tibet, conversations regarding dalai lama and the catholic church's decision to agree with the chinese government about positions within the catholic church in china, how does that affect the dalai lama and future actions taken in tibet? >> we have been working in tibet for over 20 years and helping them with livelihood development and environmental conservation. we have stayed around the same areas that they have indicated is of interest to them and we believe we will continue to stay -- >> and that's probably not the best question for you, but perhaps miss stone if you'd like to comment about that question

as well. >> so in terms of the agreement with the catholic church and the chinese, obviously it's something that we're watching very closely. the u.s. government has not taken a position on the actual agreement, but we are very aware of the fact that the chinese government in the past has taken a very aggressive and oppressive role towards religion and so we do want to track this very closely. >> senator markey. >> thank you, mr. chairman, very much. i'd like to turn to the united nations, the security council, china blocking condemnation of the burmese government over their treatment of the rohingya in burma and in bangladesh. so what is the strategy which the united states has to put pressure on china using our

other allies in order to ensure that there is maximum pressure which is imposed upon the chinese government so that they don't continue to block official statements about global condemnation about the burmese policy? >> thank you for the question, senator. as you have seen, ambassador haley in new york has raised burma on multiple occasions in the context of the security council. indeed, when our report on abuses was first finalized, she was the one who raised the conclusions in that report in the security council. so we continue to raise our concerns about what has happened in the security council. we continue to discuss with our allies how to raise the situation of burma in the u.n.

generally, but obviously so long as china has a veto, you know, it's very difficult to overcome that in any way. i think -- i believe there have been discussions with the chinese about this. china has an interest in stability in the region. but so far they have not indicated a willingness for a concrete security council action when it comes to burma. >> did president trump raise these human rights issues with president xi in his discussions at the g-20? what was that conversation, if any, that took place between president trump and president xi on the issue of human rights in burma, in other countries around the world where china is actually helping governments to engage in repressive behavior? >> so unfortunately i wasn't -- maybe not unfortunately, i was not in the room and so i do not know the discussion that went on actually during the meeting between president trump and

president xi. i can assure you that on the margins, we certainly raised these issues and we certainly raised the exit bans as well. we acknowledged that the state department's most important role is the protection of american citizens and so we certainly raised that as well. >> i appreciate that, but i think you used the right phrase, on the margins. there's no guarantee, no evidence that the president raised the issue himself, because that's the only level ultimately at which it works, especially if president trump is meeting with president xi. that's the point at which american values are restated very strongly and that he understands, that is xi understands that the united states is willing to pay a price for our maintenance of our leadership of human rights issues around the planet. so that clearly has not taken

place. now, with regard to the issue in tibet that chairman gardner raise raised and what we are saying to the chinese government about the dalai lama, about the protection of religious liberty in tibet, could you give us, again, a summary of what our statement of policy is that we are sending to the chinese government. >> thank you very much for that important question. the united states is deeply concerned about the lack of meaningful autonomy for the chinese people. we have certainly pressed for the release of detained activists throughout the entire country, but very importantly on the tibetan plateau and in historical tibet. and we have been pushing for reciprocity of access. i know that that's an important

issue. we do want to work with congress on that shared goal, and we do continue to have very serious concerns about the ability of the tibetan people to continue to have the ability to express their unique culture, their unique language and their religious practices. >> so it's pretty clear that there's a systematic effort by the chinese government, not just internally inside of china, but around the world to back those policies which are most repressive which allow for a compromise of human rights. it can be facebook, it can be google, but it can be the uighurs, it can be the rohingya, it can be other countries, venezuela. any place they're putting their footprint is a place where they're willing to turn a blind eye, use economic power,

repression by a government of those human rights, the natural aspirations of human beings to express their views to be able to be who they were born to be. so we have high expectations for you, but we have higher expectations for donald trump as well to express those views clearly, concisely, powerfully, insistently, persistently with the chinese leadership. we haven't seen evidence of that thus far, but we thank you for your service. thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator kaine. >> briefly, mr. busby and miss stone, will you endeavor to get us a response to the letter that we sent the secretary in july? >> senator, i'm sorry there hasn't been a response. i don't believe i've seen the letter but we'll take it back and get you a response. >> that would be appreciated. thank you. >> thank you. i want to follow up a little bit on the questions on tibet. i asked the question regarding catholic church policy, the agreement they reached with china and dalai lama. china has said that they will

pick the next dalai lama. the tibetan policy mandated that american officials should visit tibet on a regular basis. if china proceeds and tries to impose a dalai lama, what will the u.s. response be? >> thank you very much, and i think that's a very important question because i think it's -- the fact that you're asking that question is an important signal in itself to the chinese government that this is the kind of issue that we are watching they closely and at very senior levels. the united states has a very clear position that decisions, religious decisions should be made within religious organizations, this isn't the role of the state. i wouldn't want to prejudge exactly how this -- how a future scenario would roll out, but i would like to lay a marker that

that is the clear position of the united states government and i think widely supported within american society, that those are the kinds of decisions that should be made by religious communities on their own and without outside interference. >> thank you. i think it's enclosure that this congress would not recognize a chinese imposition. the 2002 tibetan policy act mandated that american officials should visit tibet on a regular basis. we know that very few diplomats, officials have been able to visit at ttibet to date primari because of chinese officials not granting access. could you describe the level of access your agency has received over the last three years. if anybody else wants to answer this on the panel as well. >> i'm sorry, sir, i don't have that at my fingertips the exact number of visitors, so i would ask that we be allowed to get back to you on that, but i do want to state very clearly that i do understand that the senate

is considering the reciprocal access to tibet act. we do want to continue to work very closely with congress and with your staff with the goal of seeing that americans do have access to tibet. >> thank you. i think it's important that we know what exact access we have had to tibet from our diplomatic corps. i know chinese officials who purport to represent tibet have been freely coming to the united states. i'd like to know those numbers. you mentioned the legislation itself. i think we need to consider reciprocal access as part of our policy and approach to tibet and china and what's being done to address this and to promote our access to tibet. do you share the goals of our reciprocal act? >> we certainly share the goals. we do look forward to looking with you to figure out how best to achieve those goals. >> and if passed, you would work to implement it? >> of course. >> thank you. senator markey. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i just have one final question.

that's on the human rights counc council, trying to push china on their human rights abuses. the human rights council is one aspect of our ability to coordinate with allies to put pressure on those who are violating human rights. we are now pulling out of the human rights council. how does that hurt our ability then to rally other nations to put together a plan that targets china and do so in a comprehensive way using that human rights council as a mechanism to accomplish that goal? mr. busby. >> thank you for the question, senator. well, as you know from secretary pompeo's and ambassador haley's statement at the time of the decision to withdraw from the council, our concerns had to do

with the membership on the council, which as you point out included china. china has been a member of the council for a lot of the council's years, as well as the process by which members are elected to the council. our second concern was the fact that the council pays disproportionate attention to israel. after years of trying to fix both of those problems, we were not succeeding and that's what prompted the decision to withdraw. however, the fact that we've withdrawn from the council does not mean we are withdrawing from advocacy around human rights in china. indeed, in new york on multiple occasions at the u.n. there, we have raised our concerns about china. we have raised it in multiple statements publicly. in the case that senator rubio raised in which china sought to preclude a uighur representative from joining a meeting, our mission there actually pushed back and succeeded in getting that person access to the u.n.

in new york, so we continue to look at any and all venues in which we can push back on china's own situation and china's own efforts to influence the u.n. >> well, i don't think any and all is accurate. i don't think we have any evidence the president is using his leverage with president xi to communicate our values at the highest level, so it's in that short list of considerations for the chinese government as they're trying to decide what their relationship with our country is. and i disagree, i think that being in the human rights council does help because it's the organizing principal. we might not be happy with all aspects of it, but on this china issue, i think it's an additional point of significant pressure, which we should be using as an organizing principle

to send a very strong message on human rights. down the line, there are many tools not being used from the oval office right down to the human rights council as well. and evidence as a result we're not seeing any response from the chinese on these issues, so i just think that a change in direction is absolutely necessary. so thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for your incredible leadership on this committee and we thank the witnesses as well. >> thank you. secretary busby, you talked about some of the dollars used toward democracy training. i would point out how important those efforts are, teaching about democracy, teaching young leaders about values of human rights and the bill that senator markey and i have introduced would greatly increase dollars for democracy, human rights, rule of law programming, training, and hope that you will work with us on implementation

of those dollars to provide a better, stronger voice for that. administrator steel, i don't know if there's anything you'd like to add to that. looks like you do. >> yes, i did. a major component of the administration indopacific strategy, the strengthening of democratic institutions is part of my testimony here. we all realize that there is a need to counterbalance in the development assistance manner and that's how we'll be able to play a role in counterbalancing the effect that china has in weakening countries through its own very adversarial methods. so it is -- i just wanted to confirm and verify that it is going to be a very important component of the administration's indo-pacific strategy. >> thank you again to all of you for your time and testimony today, providing us with your testimony. for the information of members, the record will remain open until the close of business

thursday. for members to submit questions for the record. i would ask that you, the witnesses respond as promptly as possible. your responses will be made a part of the record. with the thanks of this committ committee, the hearing is now adjourned.

a live look this morning in the capitol rotunda where former president george h.w. bush is lying in state. he'll remain there until 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning followed by a departure ceremony from the u.s. capitol and his state funeral service, which will be held at the national cathedral. we'll bring you live coverage of the service on c-span. former president george h.w. bush was a self-described sock man and known for wearing colorful socks. he'll be carried to his final resting place wearing a pair honoring his service as a navy pilot in world war ii and that's

according to the former president's spokesperson. today the senate foreign affairs committee will hold confirmation hearings for the director general hearings for a director general for the foreign service, the ambassador of yemen and the ambassador of australia. live coverage begins at 2:30 p.m. on c-span3. victoria new man, secretary of state during the obama administration, was among the speakers on the future of the gaza strip and the israeli palestinian peace process. it's hosted by the brookings institution. welcome to brookings. my name is bruce johnson, the vice president on the record also here at brookings and it's a pleasure to welcome you all here today. before i do anything else, i want to welcome and t